Trains Will Connect Jeddah, Makkah, Madinah, Riyadh and Dammam in 3 Years, Says Saudi Railways Chief Abdul Aziz Al-Hokail

By Siraj Wahab

Published in Arab News on Monday, Feb. 20, 2012

Three years from now Saudi Arabia will have one of the most extensive rail networks in the world. It will rival grids in such advanced nations as Spain, France and Germany. Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Abdullah has approved billions of riyals in recent years for the construction of multiple projects to link cities on the Kingdom’s northern border with Jordan, such as Haditha, Qurrayat and Hazm Al-Jalamid with Buraidah, Majmaa and Riyadh in the center. The rail network will connect Dammam on the east coast with Jeddah on the west coast. High-speed trains will link Makkah with Jeddah, Rabigh and Madinah. Dammam will be connected to Jubail and Ras Al-Khair. These are mind-boggling projects. They will change the face of Saudi Arabia. They will likely stimulate a new industrial revolution in the Kingdom.

To understand these complex railway projects, Arab News turned to the sharp, alert and seasoned mind of 68-year-old Abdul Aziz M. Al-Hokail, president of the Saudi Railways Organization. He is at the center of these game-changing scenarios. A 1964 petroleum-engineering graduate from the University of Texas in the United States, Al-Hokail spent nearly four decades in Saudi Aramco where he carried out a number of projects, small and large. He was executive vice president when he finished his career with Saudi Aramco in August 2002. Obviously the experience of building oil terminals, refineries, pipelines and oil and gas separation plants has stood him in good stead while executing the mega railway projects.

This is Al-Hokail’s fifth year at the SRO after successfully completing his first four-year term last year. Born in Majmaa near Riyadh, he went to a local school for his elementary education and attended high school in Riyadh. Like all Aramcons, he is a stickler for time. We were to meet at 10 a.m. and we were ushered into his spartan office at the SRO headquarters in Dammam exactly on the dot. A tall and kind man, Al-Hokail takes great delight in explaining the immense projects in much detail and constantly points to a map of Saudi Arabia indicating which city is located where and how will it connect to other cities in other provinces.

“We currently have 1,200 km of rail lines, and when all these projects are completed in three or four years, we will have 7,000 km,” he says. “These projects will spawn new industries, new cities, new employment opportunities, and there is every possibility that one will one day be able to take a train from Jeddah to cities in Europe.”

In the following exclusive interview with Arab News, Al-Hokail narrates fascinating details.

Q: Thank you for talking to Arab News. We keep hearing in the media about various railway projects. Can you please give us an idea about what is happening?

A: Thank you. We are going through a lot of expansion. Currently there are five big projects that are in various stages of development in the Kingdom. Let me say here that these projects are not necessarily with the Saudi Railways Organization. Some of them have already been completed such as the Maaden line which stretches from Hazm Al-Jalamid in the north to Zubairah and Ras Al-Khair. Thanks to this line, phosphate from Hazm Al-Jalamid and bauxite from Zubairah are being taken for processing to Ras Al-Khair on the east coast.

Q: That is Project No. 1. What about No. 2?

A: Yes, Project No. 2 will link Zubairah with Riyadh. It is under construction and is expected to be completed by 2014. This line is designed to carry both passengers and freight. The train speed on this line will be about 200 km per hour. It will extend to Haditha on our border with Jordan. We will then have Haditha, Zubairah, Hail, Qassim, Majmaa and Riyadh all linked together. This is the North-Riyadh Project.

Q: Project No. 3?

A: It is the Haramain High Speed Rail project which will link Makkah, Jeddah, Rabigh and Madinah. All contracts for this project are signed, and it has begun. The project’s first phase consists of civil work, and it is moving along very well. I would say 45 percent of the first phase is so far complete. The civil work involved acquisition of land, defining the alignment, digging it all up and flattening it by pouring in tons and tons of cement — basically getting the ground ready for laying tracks. Also part of the civil work is to construct 154 bridges, a viaduct and more than 500 tunnels.

Q: More than 500 tunnels?

A: Yes, there will be more than 500 tunnels on the line between Makkah, Jeddah, Rabigh and Madinah. As I said, 45 percent of Phase 1 is complete. The remainder of Phase 1 is the construction of railway stations. This contract was awarded last year. The stations will be built in Makkah, Jeddah, Rabigh and Madinah. There will be two terminals in Jeddah — one at King Abdulaziz Airport and another at the King Abdullah intersection on the Jeddah-Makkah Expressway. Phase 2 of this project will involve the laying of tracks and getting the trains on them. We will have 36 trains on this route. Their speed will be more than 300 km per hour. This crucial component of the project was awarded last year to Al-Shoula consortium, which comprises Saudi and Spanish companies. The project includes construction of railway tracks, installation of signals and telecommunication systems, electrification, operational control center and procurement of trains. This project will be completed by the end of 2014 or early 2015. Insha’Allah.

Q: Isn’t Project No. 4 the Land Bridge?

A: Yes, that is correct. It has many overlapping components which I will explain in a moment. Land Bridge will connect Ras Al-Khair with Jubail and Jubail with Dammam and then it will link with our existing network from Dammam to Riyadh. From Riyadh, it will go on to Jeddah and Yanbu. Actually, there will be a loop from Haditha in the north to the east coast cities on the Arabian Gulf and then pass through the whole of Saudi Arabia to end in Yanbu on the Red Sea. This then is the fourth project.

Q: And the last project?

A: It is what is called the Gulf Cooperation Council Railway Project. The precise length of the network will be 1,940 km, going from Kuwait to Ras Al-Khair and on to Oman and Qatar; it will run parallel to the Arabian Gulf coast. Our portion of this project is 663 km and it has to be completed by 2017 as per the decision made at one of the GCC summits. So this completes the overview of the five projects.

Q: These projects will surely change the face of Saudi Arabia.

A: Yes, without a doubt. This will lead to a big transformation. We currently have 1,200 km of rail lines between Riyadh and Dammam. We have two separate lines between the two cities. One is for freight and the other for passengers. The freight line takes a longer route through the desert and is about 700 km long. When all the new projects are completed in another three years we will have 7,000 km of tracks. That is phenomenal. Saudi Arabia will rank alongside some of the most advanced countries in the world such as Spain, Italy and Germany.

Q: What is the combined cost of all these projects?

A: I cannot say. (Independent reports say these projects run into billions and billions of riyals). What I can say is that all these projects have been approved and money has been allocated.

Q: Let me ask you a question from a layperson’s point of view: When will we able to travel to Madinah from Jeddah on the high-speed trains?

A: By the end of 2014 or by early 2015 at the latest.

Q: How long will it take for a passenger in Riyadh to get to Jeddah?

A: It will be a four- or five-hour journey.

Q: And what about those who want to travel to Jeddah or Madinah from Dammam. When will they be able to make the journey by train?

A: This depends on when the Land Bridge Project is completed. The Council of Ministers approved the project three months ago and it will probably take three years to build. Therefore, we should be able to get this network up and running by 2015. Insha’Allah.

Q: What impact will the new railway lines have on industries?

A: Huge impact. Instead of having a factory in Jeddah or Dammam, businesspeople can have them all over the country along the railway line. This will give a big boost to the rapid transport of goods within the country. Whole new towns will develop along the railway route. If need be, we will put new stations for new cities. Traveling to Makkah and Madinah will become easier, more affordable and more reliable. Now people do not have options. They have to either take a flight or drive the long distance. There will be a lot of social interaction. Trains will bring people closer. There will be no great movement toward urban centers. Tourism will flourish. Trade will boom. Goods coming from China and India will find easy access to Europe. Trains can take these goods from Jubail and Dammam ports and deliver them at the Jeddah Islamic Port from where they can be sent on to Europe. This will save a great deal of time and money. To give you an idea, a consignment from Dammam can reach Jeddah in 12 hours. The same journey takes more than a week by sea. Our rail links will go up to the border with Jordan, and Jordan is planning to link our network with their system. The Jordanian network goes up to Syria, Turkey and Europe. From Riyadh, you will be able to go via train to most of the cities in Saudi Arabia and outside the Kingdom.

Q: So what you are saying is that there is a good possibility of Saudis and expatriates going by train from Jeddah or Riyadh to destinations in Europe. Is that correct?

A: Yes, that is correct. All these links create those possibilities. Let me state here that these railway lines will serve only eight out of 13 provinces in Saudi Arabia. We are working on a master plan to connect all the other provinces in the years to come. Jazan, Najran, Baha, Asir and Tabuk -- all will be linked in one way or the another. But right now our hands are full with these big budget projects and we have to prioritize our needs and carry out our ideas and projects in a very systematic way. And that is what we are doing.

Q: How is the private sector benefiting from all these railways projects?

A: Well we have talked about trade. Who is going to do that? The private sector. These networks will give Saudis low-cost access to neighboring Gulf Cooperation Council and European markets. They will also shift lorry transport which damages road infrastructure to rail transport. More competition and modes of transport will benefit all aspects of the economy and attract additional foreign direct investment because rail transport is part of the criteria for foreign companies. We will have workshops, factories and training institutes. Who will benefit from them? The private sector. You have to remember that rail networks lead to industrial revolutions. This has happened in Europe and the United States when trains were introduced in the 1800s. They brought coal and steel to all areas and then large factories were built. Industry is wholly dependent on transportation of goods and trains are the best means of transportation. They are cheaper, environment-friendly, safe and reliable.

Q: New industrial towns and residential areas will spring up along the railway route. That sounds interesting.

A: Yes, yes. I just mentioned the United States. Look at the transportation history of other nations when trains were introduced. Look at Taiwan. When they laid the rails from Taipei to the south, there was a vast empty expanse. There were not many cities along the train route. Three years after the trains began operating, many industrial towns and cities had sprung up along the route. It is natural. That is what happens everywhere. So definitely the railroads will have a great impact here in Saudi Arabia. People in Kharj, for instance, will stay there. They will not have to come to Riyadh seeking work. People in Riyadh will be able to move out of the city and commute to work by train. This is bound to happen.

Q: Do you think all these projects have come a little late?

A: It is never too late. We shall soon be there. Insha’Allah.

Q: There surely must be a lot of focus on railways in the national budgets?

A: Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Abdullah is really the one who is leading the development and the expansion of the railway projects. He is always personally monitoring project timelines and we are very happy with his unfailing and constant support.

Q: Has money ever been an issue in executing these huge projects?

A: So far it has not been an issue because the railways are a high priority for the government. It is part of the infrastructure such as roads, ports and airports.

Q: What about talk of the organization’s being privatized?

A: Hopefully we will privatize the Saudi Railways Organization. We will then have companies that will operate all these railway lines. That would certainly be more effective. It will take place once the Land Bridge Project is complete. The Riyadh-Dammam line that we are now operating will also be privatized. That will be going to a new investor or new company. We will gradually phase out Saudi Railways. In the meantime, we are setting up the regulatory body. This has been approved by the Council of Ministers. That is why we are giving licenses and permits to entities interested in different lines. The Mashair Railway from Mina, Muzadalifa and Arafat was given to one entity. They ran it last year. We gave permission to Princess Nora bint Abdulrahman University in Riyadh to have its own on-campus metro. We granted them the license. We are in the process of giving a license to Saudi Railway Company (SAR) to operate the North-South line.

Q: You mentioned the metro at Princess Nora University. What about metros in Riyadh or Jeddah?

A: The relevant authorities in Riyadh have already approached us for issuing a license and a safety certificate for a metro. We will have metros in Riyadh, Jeddah, Makkah and Madinah. These will be light trains operating within the city limits. However, the Ministry of Rural Affairs and other development authorities are carrying out these projects. Feasibility studies have been done and the financial aspects have been taken care of. It is just a matter of time before we will have individual rail networks in these cities.

Q: Let us go back to the projects you explained at the beginning. You talked about the Jubail line connecting with the existing Dammam-Riyadh line. We were given to understand that there was going to be a new express line to Riyadh from Dammam because the existing network was not geared for high-speed trains. Is that correct?

A: I will make it clear. Now we have two lines — one for passengers and one for freight. The freight line is old. The passenger line is comparatively new but it is also 15 years old. We are doing two things. One, we are upgrading the current line so it will be able to handle high-speed trains. At the same time, we are building another line parallel to the existing passenger line. This will, we hope, be completed by June this year. We created the new express line so that we do not have to disturb the current line which is in daily operation. We have just gotten new trains for the existing upgraded route and we believe they will be in service next month. The new trains are designed for high-speed but even the upgraded track cannot take more than 180 km per hour. Even then it will shorten the travel time between Dammam and Riyadh considerably. Currently it takes five hours to go from Riyadh to Dammam. With the new trains this time will be reduced dramatically.

Q: There have been reports of accidents on the current Dammam-Riyadh line. What steps, if any, have been taken to avoid them when new lines are being laid? Will we have elevated tracks, for example?

A: We have had some accidents but fortunately they were minor ones. Most of them were a direct result of the ignorance of the four-wheel vehicle drivers. They want to take a short cut, especially when crossing the freight line that runs through the desert. They cut the fence. Sometimes when they see a train approaching they panic and leave their cars or pickups on the track and this of course results in accidents. Sometimes when the fences have been cut, camels stray onto the lines. At present we have a dedicated crew working round the clock in order to repair fences. On the passenger line, Alhamdulillah, we have not had many accidents. Our main challenge on the passenger line is the sand. We have people working 24 hours a day cleaning the track and removing the sand from the tracks.

Q: Your vast experience at Saudi Aramco must have helped you chart a new course for Saudi railways. Did you ever believe that you will one day become the architect of Saudi railways?

A: Let me be honest. There have been many architects before me. Yes, I am very happy to be in this position at this point in time. At Saudi Aramco, I have been closely involved with a number of big projects — building oil terminals, refineries, pipelines and oil and gas separation plants. I worked with them for 38 years. So, yes, working on those projects helped me a great deal. I like my current job because it is challenging. It is not dormant.

Q: Are you waiting to get onto the high-speed train to Jeddah just as we are?

A: Yes, like everyone I am excited. In the meantime, however, I keep traveling on the train to Riyadh from Dammam. I keep checking them out.

— sirajwahab@arabnews.com

My Trip to Azerbaijan in Pictures (Feb. 1-7, 2012)

“Saudi Economy Is Much Bigger Than Our Population, and To Fulfill the Requirements of the Economy We Will Still Need to Hire People From Outside”

Asharqia Chamber Chairman Abdul Rahman Al-Rashed

“But I want to reiterate that this illegal expatriate business should stop ... We can’t accept this distortion in our labor market,” says well-known Saudi businessman Abdul Rahman Al-Rashed in this exclusive interview to Arab News.

By Siraj Wahab

Published in Arab News on Monday, Jan. 16, 2012

Bold, articulate, media savvy and modest, 49-year-old Abdul Rahman Al-Rashed comes from one of the Kingdom’s major business families. The popularity of this Seattle University finance graduate in the Eastern Province business community can be gauged from the comfortable margins by which he has won the Asharqia Chamber elections.

Al-Rashed was first elected as a board member in 1998 and — after winning subsequent elections — went on to become the chairman of the chamber’s board of directors. This is his third consecutive term as the chamber chief. His success at the chamber is rated next only to the respected businessman, the late Sheikh Saad Al-Moajil.

Since he comes from a reputable business conglomerate — Rashed Al-Rashed & Sons Group — and sits on the board of over a dozen key business organizations, Al-Rashed is fully in sync with the needs of the business community. Under his leadership, the chamber has embarked on a series of programs, seminars and exhibitions to keep the business community informed of opportunities, challenges and regulations. He is particularly keen to help young Saudis launch businesses.

In this exclusive wide-ranging interview with Arab News, Al-Rashed makes a convincing case for helping young Saudi entrepreneurs. He is totally against those expatriates who have “distorted the labor market” by their illegal activities. “Ours is a land of opportunity, not a land of charity,” he insists. “Let the expatriates come up with good ideas and start their own businesses; we are fine with them, but they should do it through legal channels … They should go through the same procedure that a young Saudi goes through to start up a business.”

Below are some of the main points from the interview:

Q: You have been associated with the Eastern Province chamber for a long time. You have won all the elections that you have contested. What is behind your success?

A: I have always wanted to serve people. I believe that if one has the ability and the capability to serve society, then one should not hesitate to take the lead. My father (may Allah be pleased with him) and my mother (may God grant her good health) taught me that we should not be selfish in our approach. Society is always in need of people who can contribute toward its general progress. It is not just the uplifting of one’s home and family that should be of concern to us; it is the uplifting of the entire society that should be important to all of us. This is always at the back of my mind. The private sector and the business community have a lot of requirements. I have many friends who faced enormous challenges in starting up businesses. They were not as fortunate as I have been; I had my father’s established business. These friends had to start from scratch. I have seen and felt their pain when they went through the difficult processes of acquiring business licenses and overcoming bureaucratic hurdles. Since then, it has become my mission not to let young Saudis go through such agony. So here at the chamber we are always trying to look for solutions.

Q: You seem to be an ardent admirer and advocate of the free market economy. Is there a particular reason for this?

A: We are a nation of entrepreneurs. Ever since King Abdul Aziz Al-Saud first founded the Kingdom, the notion of an open economy and entrepreneurship has been embedded in our culture. Throughout history Arabs have been known for their trading activity and entrepreneurial skills. More important, Islam also promotes an open economy and free trade. Arab traders have a legendary history; they spread the message of Islam to the remote corners of the globe. The free economy is a major pillar of our nation’s success. We need to maintain and promote this heritage. In order to do so, we need to make sure our legislations and laws are geared to promoting a thriving free market economy.

Q: After graduating from the United States you returned to join Samba and not the family business.

A: I finished my schooling in Alkhobar and went to Seattle University and received a finance degree in 1985. When I returned, I joined Samba and stayed with them for a few years. My father wanted us all to understand the difficult and gradual process that one has to go through before rising to the top. His view was: You cannot be a boss if you are not bossed. Having a thriving family business does not mean that you automatically become the boss. I acquired considerable knowledge and experience at Samba and then, at the request of my father, joined the family business.

Q: So when did your long relationship with the chamber of commerce begin?

A: My association with the Eastern Province Chamber of Commerce (now known simply as the Asharqia Chamber) began in 1998 when I joined it as a board member. I went with a group of people led by prominent businessman Engineer Khalid Al-Zamil. He was then the chamber vice-chairman while the late Sheikh Saad Al-Moajil was chairman. It was Al-Zamil who brought me into the chamber. I learned a lot from him, he was a mentor to me and I owe much to him. This is my 10th year as the chamber chairman; I first headed it in 2002. Here at the chamber, you can survive only if you earn people’s trust. I know full well that if the members do not support me, then I will not be chairman. It is not an easy job. It entails a lot of work, hard work. You have to listen to all kinds of complaints from all kinds of members. The success of this prestigious chamber did not emerge from a vacuum; it is a product of all the processes that it has gone through in the 60 years of its existence under various founders and leaders. Abdul Rahman Al-Rashed did not do anything spectacular; he merely continued the good work of his predecessors.

Q: You are being modest, Ustaz Abdul Rahman.

A: No, this is a fact. I have learned from what my predecessors did. At the end of the day, this is an organization and like all organizations it evolved and will continue to evolve. The one who comes after me will Insha’Allah do an even better job.

Q: What are the chamber’s major tasks?

A: To market the Eastern Province as a major investment hub — something that it is. To achieve this goal, we work closely with all government entities to make it even more investor-friendly by cutting down red-tape. We are in constant touch with foreign missions. We share information with them and provide answers and data in response to their specific enquiries. We maintain excellent rapport with the offices of Eastern Province Governor Prince Mohammad bin Fahd and Deputy Governor Prince Jiluwi. They are very supportive. They play a very important role and are always focused on how to improve the business environment.

Q: Businesses in the Eastern Province have long been tied to the petroleum industry which has expanded now to include petrochemicals. Do you see that trend continuing or do you see more economic diversification coming in the Eastern Province?

A: Diversifying our economy has always been the main goal. Oil and gas are our natural resources, our natural wealth. We want to expand our economy and we have succeeded in doing just that. Oil and gas mean many things: Petrochemicals, power generation, mining, the service industry, etc. These are the areas we can — and are — diversifying into. The most important thing is to focus on the localization of these industries. For example, take the service industry, it is huge. Servicing the oil and gas industry, the petrochemical industry, the water and power generation industry will lead to enormous quantities of business. Also, remember that we are a vibrant and young nation. Sixty-five percent of our population is below the age of 25; this in itself is a huge asset and a wealth. Look at some of the nations around the world, they do not have the natural resources, yet they are leaders because their real wealth is their people, their talented people. We need to develop this talent.

Q: So is the Kingdom succeeding in developing the talent of its people?

A: No, not to the extent we want to. Take the oil and gas industry. We have been producing oil for more than seven decades now and we control 25 percent of the world’s oil reserves. We should not have been only exporting oil and the byproducts of oil, but we should also have been exporting oil extraction and oil exploration expertise and techniques. There is something seriously wrong when we do not see our petroleum engineers working across the globe. They should have been everywhere. At least all the petroleum engineers in the Gulf region should have come from Saudi Arabia. Saudis should have been developing oil fields, managing rigs, doing drilling and all that. Unfortunately, that has not happened.

Q: Let us go back to your statement about the huge service industry. How big is it? Can you please elaborate on that?

A: Look, we are still a net importer of services. If you take the money that we have already spent and committed for infrastructural projects between 2005 and 2015, it totals $100 billion. This is a massive investment.

Q: $100 billion between 2005 and 2015?

A: Yes, a $100 billion investment. If you take oil and gas projects, and petrochemical, mining, power generation, water production projects. Think of the headline projects by Saudi Aramco (SATORP, Sadara), SABIC (Saudi Basic Industries Corp.), SWCC (Saline Water Conversion Corp.), Maa’den (Saudi Arabian Mining Co.). Yes, they add up to $100 billion which is SR375 billion. After all these massive projects are complete, we will be spending at least 5 percent of the total value of these investments in maintenance. That gives you a service industry that is worth roughly around $7 billion to $8 billion. Is that not a robust industry? You are talking here about a huge economic mass. So what are we going to do to localize these services? Are we still going to hire all the expertise from outside? Shouldn’t we direct our youngsters to perform these jobs, make sure they are up to the task and train them to acquire the required skills for the maintenance of these huge investments? This is one way of diversifying our economy.

Q: Jubail is seeing a remarkable period of growth and development. Do you expect an increase in retail businesses and more residential development in support of this growing population?

A: If you go to Jubail and take a good look at the housing projects being constructed by private investors and the General Organization for Social Insurance, you will realize their great size. There has been a phenomenal increase in the housing sector to cope with the rising demand. Jubail is expanding like never before. Jubail 1 and Jubail 2 are almost full, and the day is not far off when we may be talking about Jubail 3 and Jubail 4. Jubail’s population is set to rise because of the massive upcoming projects such as the Saudi Aramco Total Refining and Petrochemical Co. (SATORP) and Sadara (Saudi Aramco’s joint venture with Dow Chemical). Then we have the expansion of the current petrochemical plants that are doubling and trebling and, in many cases, even quadrupling their capacities. We will need housing for thousands and thousands of people who will be working in these companies and plants.

Q: There is also development of an aluminum operation planned for Ras Al-Khair using bauxite brought by rail from the Central Region. Do you have any comments about its significance?

A: Yes, Ras Al-Khair (Ras Al-Zour) is undergoing massive development, and it is only 80 km from Jubail. It is going to be linked by rail to Jubail and Dammam. We all know Ras Al-Khair is set to become a major export hub for aluminum products and ammonium phosphate. The Ras Al-Khair-Jubail-Dammam rail link means a lot of people working in Ras Al-Khair will be living mostly in Jubail or on the outskirts of Dammam in view of better living environments and better schooling facilities for their children. Since it will be a mere 25-minute train ride to Ras Al-Khair from Jubail, people will not mind commuting between the two cities. I believe not many people will take up residence in Ras Al-Khair after rail links are fully established.

Q: So the Ras Al-Khair-Jubail-Dammam rail link is set to change the face of the Eastern Province?

A: Absolutely. It will lead to a number of positive changes. There will be heavy transport of cargo and people back and forth. This will lead to huge demographic changes. People will become more mobile. Those who are in Dammam will find it easy to work in Jubail. They will just take a 40-minute train ride to Jubail; the connectivity will be like what we see in Europe. New districts and new clusters of industries will develop along the train route and new highways.

Q: You talked about localization before. The latest Saudization effort has been in effect for a few months now. Are most businesses able to comply with the new regulations?

A: I want to make one thing very clear. We respect all expatriates. They have done a good job and we thank them for that. Yes, we still require expertise from the outside. That is not something exclusive to us. Even the United States and Germany have to hire people from outside their borders. However, there is one thing about our labor market, it is distorted. Foreigners are carrying on a lot of illegal economic activity here. We want expatriates to work legally. Ours is a land of opportunity, not a land of charity. Let the expatriates come up with good ideas and start their own businesses, we are fine with them, but they should do it through the legal channels. They should go through the same procedure that a young Saudi goes through to start up a business. Pay your dues. You cannot come in here illegally and compete with Saudis, young Saudis, to open businesses. Young Saudis have to pay more; they suffer more because they work legally. Since they work legally, it is much more expensive for them compared to the unlicensed illegal expatriates working in the gray market. This is not fair. This is unacceptable. Because of this gray market and illegal work, we are being made to compromise on quality. It is reflecting badly on the quality of services that our society is getting. This lousy and low quality service is a direct result of the black market. We deserve better and so we need to rectify this situation. We are a young nation. We have a young population. Our youngsters need jobs. We need to make our economy vibrant so that we can absorb these youngsters into various jobs.

Q: Are the Saudization efforts succeeding and how do you see the way out?

A: Of course there are difficulties. When we have such efforts, what happens is that it becomes difficult to differentiate between the good guys and the bad guys. Therefore, you have do a delicate balancing act. The labor minister (may God help him) is doing the real balancing act. His is a very tough job because he does not want to sacrifice what is good while punishing the bad. Sometimes he brings in legislation to tackle the black-market guys and the good guys become the unintended victims. He does not want to victimize the good guy. He wants to maintain our economic gains. At the same time, he wants to make sure that every job created by this economy goes to Saudis first. If we don’t find Saudis, then he wants to make sure that our schools and colleges and universities are geared toward providing Saudis to fill those jobs and acquire the needed expertise. Having said all this, let me also state that our economy is much bigger than our population, and to fulfill the requirements of the burgeoning economy we will still need to hire people from outside. Say we have a million or two unemployed Saudi men and women … Even if we employ all of them, then we will still leave a gap of two to three million in the market. But again I want to reiterate that this illegal expatriate business should stop. We can’t accept this distortion in our labor market. Saudis should — and must — come first.